Discussion:
Phil Allison, disturbed nitwit from Down Under
(too old to reply)
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-01 04:16:31 UTC
Permalink
He insults people from all other nations but he has never been off
his small island. He throws obscenities constantly an anyone he cannot
understand or who knows something he does not. He's an insane spastic
goofball.
Phil Allison
2007-04-01 05:09:09 UTC
Permalink
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.

YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!

Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic ASSHOLE

The asinine Ludwig cretin has not even the tiniest clue what the real facts
of the matter are.

Nor does he give a shit about that.

Cos he can bullshit the hind legs of a dead donkey.

Just like the oxygen thieving cunt is trying to do right now.


FUCK OFF YANK PIG !!




....... Phil
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-01 05:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.
YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!
Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic ASSHOLE
Your fellow islanders should correct your behavior so as not to
further tarnish their already shaky reputation.

Australia has no electronics industry, no native car industry to
speak of (oh, yes, the Holden 6-now there's a great powerplant!) and
no guns of course as they are practically outlawed. They do, however,
make the best piano there is if you can afford it. They made a few
airplanes once but that seems to be over and done. (I was rather fond
of the DH Drover, three inline engines and fixed conventional gear.)

None of them seem to have any great ambition beyond the hobby shop or
cottage industry level. Too bad because they have some resources. But
when they made everyone vote or else the women brought in gun control,
socialism, union support and other forms of political period pad
thinking. Of course, the US is even more pathetic so who am I to say??
We let the steezers run us out of our own neighborhoods and sell
everything not nailed down to the ollies. We're even worse.
Phil Allison
2007-04-01 05:56:26 UTC
Permalink
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.

YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!

Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic ASSHOLE

The asinine Ludwig cretin has not even the tiniest clue what the real facts
of the matter are.

Nor does he give a shit about that.

Cos he can bullshit the hind legs of a dead donkey.

Just like the oxygen thieving cunt is trying to do right now.


FUCK OFF YANK PIG !!



....... Phil
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-01 06:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Allison
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.
YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!
Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic ASSHOLE
It's the same moronic rant over and over and over and over. Not very
bright are you Phil?
TT
2007-04-01 06:19:37 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 1, 12:56 am, "Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the
tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.
YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!
Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic
ASSHOLE
It's the same moronic rant over and over and over and
over. Not very
bright are you Phil?
You've got it in one. Philthy is at a very trying time of
the year with not only the Full Moon approaching but Easter
as well.

As you have no doubt picked up on he was at a Marist
Catholic school in his early days and has obviously been
abused.

So as he goes through life as a mentally damaged and
tormented person he ricochets from one disaster to another
and so this pathetic creature should really be more pitied
than scorned. He really is just a very sad little man with
no qualifications and no friends that can't hold a job down.
Do you know he doesn't even have a driver's licence? I don't
even think he has a swimming certificate and the only
accomplishment he can claim was getting a fully paid for
scholarship to Uni which he blew (literally). Just ask him
why he left uni after only 2 years and threw away a fully
funded education? Especially the bit about the lecturer in
the orchestra pit ;-)

Ah well, at least when you get to know him you can have a
really good laugh like the rest of us do :-))

Cheers TT
Peter Wieck
2007-04-01 23:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by TT
On Apr 1, 12:56 am, "Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the
tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.
YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!
Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic
ASSHOLE
It's the same moronic rant over and over and over and
over. Not very
bright are you Phil?
You've got it in one. Philthy is at a very trying time of
the year with not only the Full Moon approaching but Easter
as well.
As you have no doubt picked up on he was at a Marist
Catholic school in his early days and has obviously been
abused.
So as he goes through life as a mentally damaged and
tormented person he ricochets from one disaster to another
and so this pathetic creature should really be more pitied
than scorned. He really is just a very sad little man with
no qualifications and no friends that can't hold a job down.
Do you know he doesn't even have a driver's licence? I don't
even think he has a swimming certificate and the only
accomplishment he can claim was getting a fully paid for
scholarship to Uni which he blew (literally). Just ask him
why he left uni after only 2 years and threw away a fully
funded education? Especially the bit about the lecturer in
the orchestra pit ;-)
Ah well, at least when you get to know him you can have a
really good laugh like the rest of us do :-))
Cheers TT- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
TT:

Two of our most disturbed posters were engaged in a mutual cluster-
f*ck entirely invisible to me until you added your $0.0000002. Please
let them screw each other in pleasant and ignored-by-others peace.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Phil Allison
2007-04-01 06:07:42 UTC
Permalink
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.

YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!

Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic ASSHOLE

The asinine Ludwig cretin has not even the tiniest clue what the real facts
of the matter are.

Nor does he give a shit about that.

Cos he can bullshit the hind legs of a dead donkey.


Just like the oxygen thieving cunt is trying to do right now !!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------


FUCK OFF - SEPTIC PIG !!






....... Phil
TT
2007-04-01 06:07:00 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 1, 12:09 am, "Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the
tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.
YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!
Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic
ASSHOLE
Your fellow islanders should correct your behavior so as
not to
further tarnish their already shaky reputation.
Australia has no electronics industry, no native car
industry to
speak of (oh, yes, the Holden 6-now there's a great
powerplant!) and
no guns of course as they are practically outlawed. They
do, however,
make the best piano there is if you can afford it. They
made a few
airplanes once but that seems to be over and done. (I was
rather fond
of the DH Drover, three inline engines and fixed
conventional gear.)
None of them seem to have any great ambition beyond the
hobby shop or
cottage industry level. Too bad because they have some
resources. But
when they made everyone vote or else the women brought in
gun control,
socialism, union support and other forms of political
period pad
thinking. Of course, the US is even more pathetic so who
am I to say??
We let the steezers run us out of our own neighborhoods
and sell
everything not nailed down to the ollies. We're even
worse.
Brett please don't associate all Ozzies (Australians) with
this vile POS Philthy Analson.

BTW he is actually from Tasmania, a small rock half way to
Antarctica and as such isn't really considered Australian
;-)

Cheers TT
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-01 06:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by TT
On Apr 1, 12:09 am, "Phil Allison"
Post by Phil Allison
"Bret Ludwig Criminal Psychotic Septic Asshole "
The ones I've seen failed the drive transistor and the
tubes survived
fine.
YOU clearly have ZERO experience with Music Man amps.
YOU are a KNOW NOTHING CRIMINAL LIAR !!
Bret Ludpig = Another Criminal Psychotic Septic
ASSHOLE
Your fellow islanders should correct your behavior so as
not to
further tarnish their already shaky reputation.
Australia has no electronics industry, no native car
industry to
speak of (oh, yes, the Holden 6-now there's a great
powerplant!) and
no guns of course as they are practically outlawed. They
do, however,
make the best piano there is if you can afford it. They
made a few
airplanes once but that seems to be over and done. (I was
rather fond
of the DH Drover, three inline engines and fixed
conventional gear.)
None of them seem to have any great ambition beyond the
hobby shop or
cottage industry level. Too bad because they have some
resources. But
when they made everyone vote or else the women brought in
gun control,
socialism, union support and other forms of political
period pad
thinking. Of course, the US is even more pathetic so who
am I to say??
We let the steezers run us out of our own neighborhoods
and sell
everything not nailed down to the ollies. We're even
worse.
Brett please don't associate all Ozzies (Australians) with
this vile POS Philthy Analson.
BTW he is actually from Tasmania, a small rock half way to
Antarctica and as such isn't really considered Australian
;-)
Oh no, I think he's not at all representative of any country. He's a
mutant.
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-01 06:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Ludwig
Australia has no electronics industry, no native car industry to
speak of (oh, yes, the Holden 6-now there's a great powerplant!)
UK: Jag 6, Jag 12, Aston Martin 6 (Newport Pagnall), RR (various),
BMC A series (heavy for output, reliable), various Ford 4s, Coventry
Climax, Cosworth DFX/DFV/DFY, Perkins and Gardner diesels.

Germany: Mercedes SOHC V8, Mercedes SOHC six, Mercedes OHC diesels-
OM616/617. BMW four and six. Porsche 911 (very overpriced). Porsche
356, VW Type 1,Type IV aircooled, VW Golf/Rabbit. Classic racing
engine, 300SL inline 6, 300SLR/W196 desmo DOHC straight 8.

Italy: Alfa DOHC, most all. Ferrari VI2, Colombo SOHC and DOHC
variants. Maserati, most all but disastrous piece of shit V6 in Merak/
Cit SM. Some Fiat including Dino V6.

Japan: Toyota, most, especially 20R, 22R fours, Century Hemi V8 and
current V12, Supra DOHC 6, Land Cruiser sixes, most all, DOHC V8 in
Lexus. Nissan, many, including most all diesels and early SOHC six.
Mazda, classic rotary. Isuzu,several. Daihatsu, small I3 sold for
industrial engine, runs forever.

Sweden: Volvo 4, most all. Volvo inline 6, most all (diesel is VW/
Audi and was junk.) Early PRV V6 junk. Saab 4, Saab two stroke 3.

France: Peugeot inline 4, all from 404 on. Citroen inline 4, ID/DS/
CX.

Australia: honorable mention for "Hemi" straight 6 in otherwise US
Valiant/Charger.
Arny Krueger
2007-04-02 14:16:25 UTC
Permalink
"Bret Ludwig" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com

Grotesque ignorance of US and Japanese automotive technolgy noted.
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-03 05:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Grotesque ignorance of US and Japanese automotive technolgy noted.
I didn't put any US ones in since so many are good.
Eeyore
2007-04-03 08:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Ludwig
Post by Arny Krueger
Grotesque ignorance of US and Japanese automotive technolgy noted.
I didn't put any US ones in since so many are good.
But the bhp / litre is dismal.

Graham
Arny Krueger
2007-04-03 16:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Bret Ludwig
Post by Arny Krueger
Grotesque ignorance of US and Japanese automotive
technolgy noted.
I didn't put any US ones in since so many are good.
But the bhp / litre is dismal.
According to the most recent stats I can obtain, the best selling car in the
UK in 2005 was the Ford Focus:

For example the 2007 UK Ford Focus 2 liter gas engine produces 145 hp @ 6000
rpm

A 2007 US Ford Focus 2 liter gas engine produces 136 hp @ 6000 rpm

There's really no significant difference, and such minor differences as
exist could easily be due to differences in horsepower rating standards,
pollution controls, and/or target fuel grade.

Second example - the 3 liter V6 in my Mercury Milan puts out 221 horsepower
@6250 rpm. Same basic hp/liter as the Focus. This engine is totally a US
design, and pretty typical of current production US engines.
Peter Wieck
2007-04-03 17:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Eeyore
But the bhp / litre is dismal.
According to the most recent stats I can obtain, the best selling car in the
Lemme see:

Based on "regular" fuel:

My 2.5 liter Volvo XC70 makes 208bhp at 236fp torque. That is 1.36bhp/
ci
My wife's 3 liter Saab 9-5 wagon makes 196bhp @ 229fp torque. That is
1.09bhp/ci
A 2007 7-liter Chevy Corvette makes 505bhp @ 470fp torque. That is
1.17hp/ci

So, two run-of-the-mill Euro engines straddle a "hot" US engine.

Take that for what it's worth.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-03 20:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Eeyore
But the bhp / litre is dismal.
According to the most recent stats I can obtain, the best selling car in the
My 2.5 liter Volvo XC70 makes 208bhp at 236fp torque. That is 1.36bhp/
ci
1.09bhp/ci
1.17hp/ci
So, two run-of-the-mill Euro engines straddle a "hot" US engine.
Take that for what it's worth.
There is no replacemnt for displacement.

Consider the latest iteration of the bushrod small block Chevy, or
the DOHC Northstar V8. Both world-beaters at sustained power to
weight.
Peter Wieck
2007-04-03 20:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Ludwig
There is no replacemnt for displacement.
Consider the latest iteration of the bushrod small block Chevy, or
the DOHC Northstar V8. Both world-beaters at sustained power to
weight
Then whyizit that both Euro-engines noted above put out more torque
per ci than the 7-liter monster?

The Volvo puts out 1.57 fp/ci with five cylinders
The Saab puts out 1.26 fp/ci with six cylinders
The Vette puts out 1.11 fp/ci with eight cylinders

Point being that American product designers are roughly 15 years
behind Europe in about every aspect of automotive design as it is
practiced at the consumer level. And despite seeing their customer
base eroded by the Japanese for QC, still *choose* not to get it
right. I use the word "choose" deliberately as both Euro and Pacific
Rim manufacturers source and assemble in North America with no
perceptible difference in quality between their home-factories and US
factories. So, it ain't nohow the labor force, education or
willingness to do good work. Sure, there are "Legacy" costs, I would
not deny that for even one second... but the bottom line is which car
runs better, gets better mileage and will last longer? Those of us
willing to pay the premium for quality Euro Cars (let's just leave the
Italians, French and Brits out of it for now) would be glad to
"discount" to a domestic product were that premium not absolutely
justified in the first couple of years of ownership... and we will not
even get into Japanese QC and the fanatical attention they pay to fit-
and-finish. It is a very sad example, but the most "American" vehicle
now made is the Ford Expedition... 95% sourced in NA, and made in
Detroit... along with their Crown Victoria at. Yikes! Dinosaurs in
every sense of the word even if very nearly "all-American".

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-04 01:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Bret Ludwig
There is no replacemnt for displacement.
Consider the latest iteration of the bushrod small block Chevy, or
the DOHC Northstar V8. Both world-beaters at sustained power to
weight
Then whyizit that both Euro-engines noted above put out more torque
per ci than the 7-liter monster?
The Volvo puts out 1.57 fp/ci with five cylinders
The Saab puts out 1.26 fp/ci with six cylinders
The Vette puts out 1.11 fp/ci with eight cylinders
Point being that American product designers are roughly 15 years
behind Europe in about every aspect of automotive design as it is
practiced at the consumer level.
Okay. displacement matters in racing, because the class of the race
car is defined by the engine displacement and in some series there is
a specified displacement. And in benighted, backward countries where
they put a sales or registration tax on cars based on the displacement
of the engine, displacement matters. The car BMW sells with a 3 liter
inline six, has an engine that weighs as much as a smallblock Chevy at
5.7 liters. The Chevy will run longer, cost a lot less to maintain,
and get just as good fuel mileage when both engines are equipped with
equal engine management systems and enough gears to keep the engine in
its power band. So using more displacement is not a bug, it's a
feature. No one in the target market cares.

Most European and Japanese engines are ridiculously heavy per cubic
inch. The German VW and Porsche aircooled engines and the aluminum
Hondas are big exceptions. Putting a SB Chevy in a Jag 6 lightens the
front end by 100 lbs and a XJ12 by nearly 200. Putting a 215 Buick/
Olds/Rover in a four cylinder MG or Triumph is weight neutral despite
going from under 2 to 3.5 litres displacement. Even the current
generation of Euro engines is heavier per cubic inch.

This makes economic sense in Europe because the purchase price and/or
annual taxes get stupid with higher displacement. So they build a
heavy, faster-turning, better flowing engine at higher build cost and
more frequent overhauls.
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-04 01:56:51 UTC
Permalink
It is a very sad example, but the most "American" vehicle
Post by Peter Wieck
now made is the Ford Expedition... 95% sourced in NA, and made in
Detroit... along with their Crown Victoria at. Yikes! Dinosaurs in
every sense of the word even if very nearly "all-American".
Were I offered a brand new vehicle on condition I keep it forever or
give it back, my choice would be a Town Car, Crown Vic or Grand
Marquis. Wouldn't have to think about it another second. Hell for
stout, run forever, mileage good enough. Sure, a Prius would burn less
gas. But have you seen one in a wreck?

Police departments not only swear by the Crown Vic, cops buy them for
their families. Full frame underneath. Suspension takes chuckholes.
Sure, I'd rather have a pushrod 351 and a nine inch rear end, but
given maintenance the modular will run 300K before overhaul.

I wouldn't even look at BMW or Benz. I get the tool catalogs from the
companies catering to BMW and Benz mechanics. The tools alone to
support the mechanicals are scary, and the electrics are less reliable
than American ones, by far. (Delphi electrics and engine management
is far and away the best there is. Ford is not as good but way better
than Bosch.) And I had several of the old diesel Benzes-all-mechanical
engines though. Saab? That's GM now, with diddled mechanicals. Volvo?
Seems to be a little stouter, and I like the style, but I don't pay
for fru-fru and I'm unconvinced they will hold up like the RWD car
did. The Japanese? They have lost the simplicity that made some of the
older Japanese products ttractive, I'd buy Korean for the lower tech
and price.
Arny Krueger
2007-04-03 20:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Eeyore
But the bhp / litre is dismal.
According to the most recent stats I can obtain, the
My 2.5 liter Volvo XC70 makes 208bhp at 236fp torque.
That is 1.36bhp/ ci
Turbocharged.

Hardly a run-of-the-mill engine.
Post by Peter Wieck
torque. That is 1.09bhp/ci
My normally-aspirated 3.0 liter Milan 4-door sedan makes 221 hp.

1.22 bhp/ci
Post by Peter Wieck
torque. That is 1.17hp/ci
This turns out to be a normally-aspirated pushrod engine. Bascially, a
retro-engine by contemporary US standards. GM justifies it on the grounds
that it helps keep the hood low.
Post by Peter Wieck
So, two run-of-the-mill Euro engines straddle a "hot" US engine.
Take that for what it's worth.
Not much given that you obfuscated the fact that one engine was turbocharged
and the other is a retro-engine.
Peter Wieck
2007-04-03 21:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Peter Wieck
So, two run-of-the-mill Euro engines straddle a "hot" US engine.
Take that for what it's worth.
Not much given that you obfuscated the fact that one engine was turbocharged
and the other is a retro-engine.
Both the Volvo and the Saab engines as I described are considered to
be LPT engines (light-pressure-turbo). I am sure that you know what
that means, but it would be hardly fitting to call either of them
"turbocharged" in the typical sense of the word. Neither use that
designation in the descriptive, either. When (at least in this
country) Volvo or Saab do put "T" in their descriptive, the turbo set-
up is distinctly different and the HP output distinctly higher. But
you already knew that.

So, let's take the Dodge Viper engine (a V10 8.3 liter exotic (by US
Standards)). Also pushrod, BTW.

505 ci. = 1.0099 hp/ci @ 1.06 fp/ci
510 bhp
535 fp torque.

Lemme see... what else: The true Saab 2.8 liter Bi-Turbo puts out
400bhp @ 5000 rpm. THAT is an exotic engine at 2.35hp/ci. A V10 of
similar displacement to the Viper would make 1186 hp.

The Cadillac Northstar V8 makes 1.14hp/ci and is considered one of the
most advanced engines in production in the US.

Again, for what it's worth.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-04 01:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wieck
Lemme see... what else: The true Saab 2.8 liter Bi-Turbo puts out
similar displacement to the Viper would make 1186 hp.
The Cadillac Northstar V8 makes 1.14hp/ci and is considered one of the
most advanced engines in production in the US.
Again, for what it's worth.
I've seen turboed Northstars at 500 hp and twin-turbo 5.0 pushrod
Fords at 650+ hp, on the street, and reasonably driveable. WIth a good
turbo setup, with intercooling and good gas flow, any engine can be
brought up to its mechanical limits determined by heat rejection and
BMEP. Almost all production car engines today are firmware limited and
if you can write new code or trick the box by modifying its inputs you
can make a lot more power than most people would think. There just
isn't that much wizardry involved anymore. Naturally aspirated engines
need to be wound tight (high RPM) to get gains in power and there
there is a lot of wizardry-in making engines stay together at high
RPM, at reducing parasitic losses and in making the engine flow a lot
of gas. But TBO, or engine life as it were, goes down pretty
dramatically when you start winding engines tight. Bore wear goes up,
and fatigue becomes an issue.

If you took that Saab 2.8 Biturbo and hooked it to, say, a generator-
or a propeller-and ran it at a constant power setting, how long would
it last at that 400 hp? At 300 hp? 200 hp? At what power setting
would it last 2000 hours? 500? At each of these settings, how much
fuel is it going to be burning? And what does it weigh? Those are aome
good questions to ask.
Eeyore
2007-04-04 02:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Ludwig
I've seen turboed Northstars at 500 hp and twin-turbo 5.0 pushrod
Fords at 650+ hp, on the street, and reasonably driveable.
Why exactly do they still use *PUSHRODS* ?

Graham
Ian Iveson
2007-04-04 13:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Bret Ludwig
I've seen turboed Northstars at 500 hp and twin-turbo 5.0 pushrod
Fords at 650+ hp, on the street, and reasonably driveable.
Why exactly do they still use *PUSHRODS* ?
So you can see where you're going.

The last thing a big rumbly engine needs is an OHC.

cheers, Ian
Eeyore
2007-04-04 14:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Iveson
Post by Eeyore
Post by Bret Ludwig
I've seen turboed Northstars at 500 hp and twin-turbo 5.0 pushrod
Fords at 650+ hp, on the street, and reasonably driveable.
Why exactly do they still use *PUSHRODS* ?
So you can see where you're going.
The last thing a big rumbly engine needs is an OHC.
Oh my goodness ! They should use sidevalves. ;~)

Graham
Ian Iveson
2007-04-04 17:33:16 UTC
Permalink
Graham said
Post by Eeyore
Oh my goodness ! They should use sidevalves. ;~)
That would be going too far in the rumbly direction. Saves on parts
though. What's in those big Landrover substitutes the US military use?
I wouldn't be surprised.

Ian
Arny Krueger
2007-04-04 18:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Iveson
Graham said
Post by Eeyore
Oh my goodness ! They should use sidevalves. ;~)
That would be going too far in the rumbly direction.
Saves on parts though. What's in those big Landrover
substitutes the US military use?
The HumVee?

Normal engine for the military is a 7 liter multifuel (essentially an
omniverous diesel).

The multifuel is likely a 2-stroke diesel, meaning that there are only
exhaust valves. The funtion of the intake valves is provided by ports that
are covered at the right times by the pistons. It's a direct-injection
diesel, so only air is taken in during the intake stroke. Intake air passes
through the wet-sump crankcase, so excess revving can whip up the engine oil
in such a way that it becomes an uncontrolled source of fuel, possibly
leading to self-destruction due to further over-revving.
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-04 19:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
The HumVee?
Normal engine for the military is a 7 liter multifuel (essentially an
omniverous diesel).
The multifuel is likely a 2-stroke diesel, meaning that there are only
exhaust valves. The funtion of the intake valves is provided by ports that
are covered at the right times by the pistons. It's a direct-injection
diesel, so only air is taken in during the intake stroke. Intake air passes
through the wet-sump crankcase, so excess revving can whip up the engine oil
in such a way that it becomes an uncontrolled source of fuel, possibly
leading to self-destruction due to further over-revving.
Unfortunately the Humvee uses a vanilla 6.5 Chevy diesel, which is
not multifuel. Nor is it a two cycle engine, as the Detroit Diesel
engines of the past (a few are still made, and are used in certain
Army vehicles, but not the Humvee.)

The Detroit Diesel has a regular old wet sump, like a four cycle
engine. The engine uses exhaust valves of poppet type in the head,
operated by a cam high in the block and short pushrods. Intake is
through holes in the cylinder liner when the long, sealed piston is at
BDC. There is an air plenum in the block fed at slight positive
pressure by the Roots blower, which is where the drag guys got their
blowers for decades: worn-out ones off Detroits reworked for
supercharger use. It is not a multifuel engine per se, although
hardened injectors are available, it does not like particularly low
cetane fuels.

All diesel engines by definition, operate with unthrottled air and
control engine power by the timing and quantity of fuel ejaculated
into the cylinder by the injection system. All diesels are compression
ignition, but not all compression ignition engines are Diesel. (The
others have fallen by the wayside, except for model airplanes and
torpedoes and such.) "Direct injection" in diesels refers to the lack
of a prechamber or energy cell into which fuel is injected for
sequestered burning. Today most all diesels are direct injection, but
smaller engines (like the Mercedes OM engines in five decades of Benz
diesel cars and Thermo King reefer units) were indirect prechamber
engines, and some early US truck diesels used the Lanova system or
other odd combustion chamber arrangements. By 1955, when Mack
introduced the turbocharged truck engine, they had disappeared, along
with semi-diesel engines like the Waukesha-Hesselman.
Ian Iveson
2007-04-04 19:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Arny said
Post by Arny Krueger
The HumVee?
That's the one.
Post by Arny Krueger
Normal engine for the military is a 7 liter multifuel (essentially
an omniverous diesel).
The multifuel is likely a 2-stroke diesel, meaning that there are
only exhaust valves. The funtion of the intake valves is provided by
ports that are covered at the right times by the pistons. It's a
direct-injection diesel, so only air is taken in during the intake
stroke. Intake air passes through the wet-sump crankcase, so excess
revving can whip up the engine oil in such a way that it becomes an
uncontrolled source of fuel, possibly leading to self-destruction
due to further over-revving.
Cripes. Like the apocryphal dumper left on a hill in gear, that starts
itself backwards and runs amok because the governor doesn't work in
that direction.

Presumably a valve is less troublesome than a piston-ported exhaust on
account of the soot and heat.

cheers, Ian
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-04 21:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Iveson
Arny said
Post by Arny Krueger
The HumVee?
That's the one.
Post by Arny Krueger
Normal engine for the military is a 7 liter multifuel (essentially
an omniverous diesel).
The multifuel is likely a 2-stroke diesel, meaning that there are
only exhaust valves. The funtion of the intake valves is provided by
ports that are covered at the right times by the pistons. It's a
direct-injection diesel, so only air is taken in during the intake
stroke. Intake air passes through the wet-sump crankcase, so excess
revving can whip up the engine oil in such a way that it becomes an
uncontrolled source of fuel, possibly leading to self-destruction
due to further over-revving.
Cripes. Like the apocryphal dumper left on a hill in gear, that starts
itself backwards and runs amok because the governor doesn't work in
that direction.
Presumably a valve is less troublesome than a piston-ported exhaust on
account of the soot and heat.
That was poor design, certainly. The four stroke diesels would run
backwards, with the intake as the exhaust and vice versa, with only a
good scare if it were shut down promptly, but sustained operation
would cause an underhood fire and also suck garbage in through the
(usually) exhaust valves. The old Benzes had oil bath air cleaners and
they always caught fire.

Usually they didn't run away though.

There were two cycle valveless diesels, both blower scavenged and
some small engines with crankcase scavenging. The Brit Stuart Turner
and US Cerlist, both obscure. DD made the 51 Series but they were not
real successful and they traded them all out for the conventional (by
DD standards) 53 Series. Ford did the same with the 707/710 truck
turbines that actually found a few fleet customers. I know a collector
of trucks who has one in his living room.

Bret Ludwig
2007-04-04 19:02:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Ian Iveson
Post by Eeyore
Why exactly do they still use *PUSHRODS* ?
So you can see where you're going.
The last thing a big rumbly engine needs is an OHC.
Oh my goodness ! They should use sidevalves. ;~)
Don't laugh. The Model A Ford was a 200 cid engine that weighed 230
lbs stock (minus flywneel, which was outsize). It put out a sad 40 hp
stock. But it would do it on fuel that a modern petrochemist would
characterize as closer to kerosene than gasoline (they'd burn JP-4
with a little 115/145 purple avgas added, as a generation of Air Force
people knew). Now put in a counterweighted crank, trim the flywheel
down and put on an aluminum cast finned head, Ford 8N valves and a
rumpety cam and you had roughly 100 horse out of those same 200 cubes,
and 240 lbs with flywheel. (Although only on good pump gas.) That
beat the power to weight of most stock engines, Euro and US alike,
until modern times. By then, the A/B Ford was out and the smallblock
Chevy was in with the rod builders.

The best application of the A/B Ford was one Henry never envisaged:
the Pietenpol Air Camper. It would fly two skinny depression era
people around the pea patch as well as a J-3 Cub for very little
money,even for those times. Of course, it was considered okay to use
bedsheets for airplane fabric then. Still, people build them today
(the materials are fifteen or twenty grand now) and every Model A club
gets calls from someonel ooking for a B engine for their Piet project
now and then.
Arny Krueger
2007-04-04 16:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Bret Ludwig
I've seen turboed Northstars at 500 hp and twin-turbo
5.0 pushrod Fords at 650+ hp, on the street, and
reasonably driveable.
Why exactly do they still use *PUSHRODS* ?
Frankly, they are not that much of a problem. After all, NASCAR gets pushrod
V8s to run at 9000+ rpm all afternoon. There are two practical problems
with the classic OHC configurations, maybe three:

(1) OHC makes the V-block engine taller and harder to package under a low
hood.
(2) More cams and their drive trains have more friction losses.
(3) Doing OHC and hydraulic valve lifters (for low noise and long
maintenance intervals) ain't always easy and tends to wash out some of the
advantages of the OHC.
Arny Krueger
2007-04-04 16:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Peter Wieck
So, two run-of-the-mill Euro engines straddle a "hot"
US engine. Take that for what it's worth.
Not much given that you obfuscated the fact that one
engine was turbocharged and the other is a retro-engine.
Both the Volvo and the Saab engines as I described are
considered to be LPT engines (light-pressure-turbo). I am
sure that you know what that means, but it would be
hardly fitting to call either of them "turbocharged" in
the typical sense of the word.
Oh come on. There's a turbocharger on the spec sheet!

The Volvo engine is typical of turbocharged street engines. That turbo costs
an arm and a leg, so its there for a reason-to produce more horsepower per
cubic inch at a significant cost.
Post by Peter Wieck
Neither use that
designation in the descriptive, either. When (at least in
this country) Volvo or Saab do put "T" in their
descriptive, the turbo set- up is distinctly different
and the HP output distinctly higher. But you already knew
that.
So, let's take the Dodge Viper engine (a V10 8.3 liter
exotic (by US Standards)). Also pushrod, BTW.
510 bhp
535 fp torque.
Yes, this is yet another retro-engine. It's well suited for its day job, in
Dodge RAM SRT-10 trucks!
Post by Peter Wieck
Lemme see... what else: The true Saab 2.8 liter Bi-Turbo
2.35hp/ci. A V10 of similar displacement to the Viper
would make 1186 hp.
This engine appears to be pure vapor as a production product. I can't find
any mention of it on the U.S. annex of the SAAB web site.
Post by Peter Wieck
The Cadillac Northstar V8 makes 1.14hp/ci and is considered one of the
Most advanced engines in production in the US.
If the Northstars are so advanced, why does the mid-priced Milan V6
outperform both the Northstar V8 and its 6 cyl variant in terms of hp/cubic
inches at less than half the price?

At this point the thesis I was addressing has been thoroughly obscured. Even
the worst of the US retro-engines is within about 10% of the hp/cu in of
similar european regular gas, normally-aspirated, street-ready, mass
production auto engines. The allleged dismal bhp/liter of US engines is not
a real world situation in this day and age.
Bret Ludwig
2007-04-03 18:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
Post by Bret Ludwig
Post by Arny Krueger
Grotesque ignorance of US and Japanese automotive technolgy noted.
I didn't put any US ones in since so many are good.
But the bhp / litre is dismal.
Who cares? What is important is BSFC-brake specific fuel consumption-
and power to weight. If an engine fits a certain space, burns a
certain amount of fuel and weighs a certain amount, what does it
matter, unless you are stupidly taxing vehicles on engine
displacement, what its displacement?

There is no replacement for displacement.

Consider the inline six Jaguar DOHC engine (the old one.) It was 3.8
or 4.2 liters and weighed more than a 5.7 Chevy. The Chevy with proper
gearing, will replace the Jag 6 in a XJ6 improving top speed,
acceleration, and fuel mileage. The BMW and Mercedes engines are
similarly heavier (hugely so) per unit of displacement and actually
less economical.
Eeyore
2007-04-03 08:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Ludwig
Post by Bret Ludwig
Australia has no electronics industry, no native car industry to
speak of (oh, yes, the Holden 6-now there's a great powerplant!)
UK: Jag 6, Jag 12, Aston Martin 6 (Newport Pagnall), RR (various),
BMC A series (heavy for output, reliable), various Ford 4s, Coventry
Climax, Cosworth DFX/DFV/DFY, Perkins and Gardner diesels.
Germany: Mercedes SOHC V8, Mercedes SOHC six, Mercedes OHC diesels-
OM616/617. BMW four and six. Porsche 911 (very overpriced). Porsche
356, VW Type 1,Type IV aircooled, VW Golf/Rabbit. Classic racing
engine, 300SL inline 6, 300SLR/W196 desmo DOHC straight 8.
Italy: Alfa DOHC, most all. Ferrari VI2, Colombo SOHC and DOHC
variants. Maserati, most all but disastrous piece of shit V6 in Merak/
Cit SM. Some Fiat including Dino V6.
Japan: Toyota, most, especially 20R, 22R fours, Century Hemi V8 and
current V12, Supra DOHC 6, Land Cruiser sixes, most all, DOHC V8 in
Lexus. Nissan, many, including most all diesels and early SOHC six.
Mazda, classic rotary. Isuzu,several. Daihatsu, small I3 sold for
industrial engine, runs forever.
Sweden: Volvo 4, most all. Volvo inline 6, most all (diesel is VW/
Audi and was junk.) Early PRV V6 junk. Saab 4, Saab two stroke 3.
France: Peugeot inline 4, all from 404 on. Citroen inline 4, ID/DS/
CX.
Australia: honorable mention for "Hemi" straight 6 in otherwise US
Valiant/Charger.
Saab H series.

Up to 400 bhp in competition condition from 2.3 litres. They never needed
anything bigger.

Graham
Iain Churches
2007-04-01 14:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Ludwig
He insults people from all other nations but he has never been off
his small island. He throws obscenities constantly an anyone he cannot
understand or who knows something he does not. He's an insane spastic
goofball.
Erm. Australia can hardly be describes as a "small island"
(or did you mean Tasmania?)

Iain
Peter Wieck
2007-04-01 23:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iain Churches
Post by Bret Ludwig
He insults people from all other nations but he has never been off
his small island. He throws obscenities constantly an anyone he cannot
understand or who knows something he does not. He's an insane spastic
goofball.
Erm. Australia can hardly be describes as a "small island"
(or did you mean Tasmania?)
Iain
Ian:

Allison and Ludwig deserve each other. Please let them engage in
mutual wild-monkey o*al sex without the need for anyone (including
you) to intrude.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
west
2007-04-02 15:29:47 UTC
Permalink
just like you (Weik) & Yeager. At least PA has an excuse (illness). What's
yours ... hate yourself, frustration? Yeager also has an excuse, jealous
immaturity. I wish you wouldn't answer any posts of mine. There's enough ill
will already here.

unsigned out of utter contempt
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Iain Churches
Post by Bret Ludwig
He insults people from all other nations but he has never been off
his small island. He throws obscenities constantly an anyone he cannot
understand or who knows something he does not. He's an insane spastic
goofball.
Erm. Australia can hardly be describes as a "small island"
(or did you mean Tasmania?)
Iain
Allison and Ludwig deserve each other. Please let them engage in
mutual wild-monkey o*al sex without the need for anyone (including
you) to intrude.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Jon Yaeger
2007-04-02 17:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by west
just like you (Weik) & Yeager. At least PA has an excuse (illness). What's
yours ... hate yourself, frustration? Yeager also has an excuse, jealous
immaturity. I wish you wouldn't answer any posts of mine. There's enough ill
will already here.
unsigned out of utter contempt
Pest,

I never understood this "unsigned out of contempt", utter or otherwise . . .
as the headers are already "signed". But it's a trite little phrase that
your idol Jute employs, so I'm not surprised.

I still can't figure out what I'm supposed to be jealous of . . . your
knowledge, demonstrated craftsmanship & skills, articulateness, high
intelligence . . .

Do tell, friend!

Jon
Peter Wieck
2007-04-02 19:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by west
just like you (Weik) & Yeager. At least PA has an excuse (illness). What's
yours ... hate yourself, frustration? Yeager also has an excuse, jealous
immaturity. I wish you wouldn't answer any posts of mine. There's enough ill
will already here.
unsigned out of utter contempt
Pest,
I never understood this "unsigned out of contempt", utter or otherwise . . .
as the headers are already "signed".  But it's a trite little phrase that
your idol Jute employs, so I'm not surprised.
I still can't figure out what I'm supposed to be jealous of . . .  your
knowledge, demonstrated craftsmanship & skills, articulateness, high
intelligence . . .
Do tell, friend!
Jon
Jon:

The difficulty with West is that he/she expects to be taken seriously
at all levels and at all times. There are some pretty basic issues
that appear to obtain:

a) a limited sense-of-humor. This is the primary requirement for
reasonable survival in Usenet.
b) the hide of a rhinocerous. After a sense-of-humor, the next-most
needed attribute.
c) recent-convert-syndrome: Most such are quite dedicated and quite
fanatical... see a) and b) above.
d) youth: West is likely quite young and impressionable. One of the
hardest experiences in a young life after the first broken heart is to
discover that one's first 'adult' hero actually does have feet of
clay.
e) absolute syndrome: The fallacious thinking that the opposite of
Black is necessarily White.

Then, of course, one may discuss his/her choice of avatars. अवतार. If
the choice is to be Kato to Jute-McCoy's Clouseau, there is not much
that can be done about it other than hope for an awakening before
permanent brain-damage sets in. Now, that analogy is apt in another
way... those who are too close to the noted pair tend to get caught in
the collateral damage. My position (and I write -only- for myself in
this case) is to see Jute-McCoy in the same light as a wintering den
for rattlesnakes. Fair warning to all is required, but in the main it
is best left ignored, untouched and undisturbed. Well... right. There
are both no snakes in Ireland and rattlesnakes are environmentally
important. Sorry for a bad second analogy.

For me, this is a hobby. Audio/Vintage Radios/Clocks/RC and so forth
get perhaps 4-5 hours a week of my time, including such posts as this.
And I consider myself blessed that my life and circumstance permits
such luxury. My personal favorite tasks are the restoration of
equipment (SS & Tube) of certain vintages... with the more difficult
the problem the better. I don't take _any_ of it seriously... That
would be directly contrary to the purpose of a hobby, after all.

Lastly, West seems to be entirely unaware that many here have paid
their dues, are entitled to their opinion (and have no hesitation
about expressing such), and in some cases are not particularly 'nice'
people. Such is life, t'was ever thus and ever will be. I will take
honest, direct, and knowledgable over 'nice' under all conditions and
circumstances.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Jon Yaeger
2007-04-02 20:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by west
just like you (Weik) & Yeager. At least PA has an excuse (illness). What's
yours ... hate yourself, frustration? Yeager also has an excuse, jealous
immaturity. I wish you wouldn't answer any posts of mine. There's enough ill
will already here.
unsigned out of utter contempt
Pest,
I never understood this "unsigned out of contempt", utter or otherwise . . .
as the headers are already "signed".  But it's a trite little phrase that
your idol Jute employs, so I'm not surprised.
I still can't figure out what I'm supposed to be jealous of . . .  your
knowledge, demonstrated craftsmanship & skills, articulateness, high
intelligence . . .
Do tell, friend!
Jon
The difficulty with West is that he/she expects to be taken seriously
at all levels and at all times. There are some pretty basic issues
a) a limited sense-of-humor. This is the primary requirement for
reasonable survival in Usenet.
b) the hide of a rhinocerous. After a sense-of-humor, the next-most
needed attribute.
c) recent-convert-syndrome: Most such are quite dedicated and quite
fanatical... see a) and b) above.
d) youth: West is likely quite young and impressionable. One of the
hardest experiences in a young life after the first broken heart is to
discover that one's first 'adult' hero actually does have feet of
clay.
e) absolute syndrome: The fallacious thinking that the opposite of
Black is necessarily White.
Then, of course, one may discuss his/her choice of avatars. अवतार. If
the choice is to be Kato to Jute-McCoy's Clouseau, there is not much
that can be done about it other than hope for an awakening before
permanent brain-damage sets in. Now, that analogy is apt in another
way... those who are too close to the noted pair tend to get caught in
the collateral damage. My position (and I write -only- for myself in
this case) is to see Jute-McCoy in the same light as a wintering den
for rattlesnakes. Fair warning to all is required, but in the main it
is best left ignored, untouched and undisturbed. Well... right. There
are both no snakes in Ireland and rattlesnakes are environmentally
important. Sorry for a bad second analogy.
For me, this is a hobby. Audio/Vintage Radios/Clocks/RC and so forth
get perhaps 4-5 hours a week of my time, including such posts as this.
And I consider myself blessed that my life and circumstance permits
such luxury. My personal favorite tasks are the restoration of
equipment (SS & Tube) of certain vintages... with the more difficult
the problem the better. I don't take _any_ of it seriously... That
would be directly contrary to the purpose of a hobby, after all.
Lastly, West seems to be entirely unaware that many here have paid
their dues, are entitled to their opinion (and have no hesitation
about expressing such), and in some cases are not particularly 'nice'
people. Such is life, t'was ever thus and ever will be. I will take
honest, direct, and knowledgable over 'nice' under all conditions and
circumstances.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Some good observations and points there, Peter.

We probably have a bit in common -- I like to restore gear and do a limited
amount of design (with the emphasis on LIMITED). I also have a life and a
lot of other interests besides audio, believe it or not.

I like to read many of the posts here, although the quality of info and the
goodwill that brought me here, say, five or so years ago are long gone.

There are still a lot of good posts and posters (e.g. Iain Churches, etc.)
whom I read and enjoy and respect and don't feel compelled to interact with
unless there is a common interest about a tube subject.

There are others, who, perhaps owing to a character defect (mine) inspire me
to tease and deride. As you point out, some can take it and fire back, etc.
Sure, sometimes I'm a horse's ass.

I'm not sure how West and I got sideways. I reviewed some of my sent
correspondence from a few years back and there was quite a bit of cordial
communication between us.

Then Jutey-Fruity assailed my character (as he is wont to do when he can't
compete otherwise) and made some groundless mention of how I supposedly had
cheated old West.

Jutey-Fruity has this way of making up bad stuff about folks and repeating
it at every opportunity as if it is fact. It's fairly obvious that in his
mind fiction is truer than reality.

West (or someone who sounded a lot like Jute posting as West) recently
leveled the same tired old general accusation on this NG.

I took him to task and challenged him to say publicly in detail what I
supposedly did to wrong him.

Like Jute, West never responded with facts or details because there aren't
any.

It's hard for me to respect someone that acts like such a tool, especially
when he never seems to add anything to the threads, except to pose regular
questions and act like he never absorbs anything from the answers.

Jon
west
2007-04-02 20:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by west
just like you (Weik) & Yeager. At least PA has an excuse (illness). What's
yours ... hate yourself, frustration? Yeager also has an excuse, jealous
immaturity. I wish you wouldn't answer any posts of mine. There's enough ill
will already here.
unsigned out of utter contempt
Pest,
I never understood this "unsigned out of contempt", utter or otherwise . . .
as the headers are already "signed". But it's a trite little phrase
that
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
your idol Jute employs, so I'm not surprised.
I still can't figure out what I'm supposed to be jealous of . . . your
knowledge, demonstrated craftsmanship & skills, articulateness, high
intelligence . . .
Do tell, friend!
Jon
The difficulty with West is that he/she expects to be taken seriously
at all levels and at all times. There are some pretty basic issues
a) a limited sense-of-humor. This is the primary requirement for
reasonable survival in Usenet.
b) the hide of a rhinocerous. After a sense-of-humor, the next-most
needed attribute.
c) recent-convert-syndrome: Most such are quite dedicated and quite
fanatical... see a) and b) above.
d) youth: West is likely quite young and impressionable. One of the
hardest experiences in a young life after the first broken heart is to
discover that one's first 'adult' hero actually does have feet of
clay.
e) absolute syndrome: The fallacious thinking that the opposite of
Black is necessarily White.
Then, of course, one may discuss his/her choice of avatars. ?????. If
the choice is to be Kato to Jute-McCoy's Clouseau, there is not much
that can be done about it other than hope for an awakening before
permanent brain-damage sets in. Now, that analogy is apt in another
way... those who are too close to the noted pair tend to get caught in
the collateral damage. My position (and I write -only- for myself in
this case) is to see Jute-McCoy in the same light as a wintering den
for rattlesnakes. Fair warning to all is required, but in the main it
is best left ignored, untouched and undisturbed. Well... right. There
are both no snakes in Ireland and rattlesnakes are environmentally
important. Sorry for a bad second analogy.
For me, this is a hobby. Audio/Vintage Radios/Clocks/RC and so forth
get perhaps 4-5 hours a week of my time, including such posts as this.
And I consider myself blessed that my life and circumstance permits
such luxury. My personal favorite tasks are the restoration of
equipment (SS & Tube) of certain vintages... with the more difficult
the problem the better. I don't take _any_ of it seriously... That
would be directly contrary to the purpose of a hobby, after all.
Lastly, West seems to be entirely unaware that many here have paid
their dues, are entitled to their opinion (and have no hesitation
about expressing such), and in some cases are not particularly 'nice'
people. Such is life, t'was ever thus and ever will be. I will take
honest, direct, and knowledgable over 'nice' under all conditions and
circumstances.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Some good observations and points there, Peter.
We probably have a bit in common -- I like to restore gear and do a limited
amount of design (with the emphasis on LIMITED). I also have a life and a
lot of other interests besides audio, believe it or not.
I like to read many of the posts here, although the quality of info and the
goodwill that brought me here, say, five or so years ago are long gone.
There are still a lot of good posts and posters (e.g. Iain Churches, etc.)
whom I read and enjoy and respect and don't feel compelled to interact with
unless there is a common interest about a tube subject.
There are others, who, perhaps owing to a character defect (mine) inspire me
to tease and deride. As you point out, some can take it and fire back, etc.
Sure, sometimes I'm a horse's ass.
I'm not sure how West and I got sideways. I reviewed some of my sent
correspondence from a few years back and there was quite a bit of cordial
communication between us.
Then Jutey-Fruity assailed my character (as he is wont to do when he can't
compete otherwise) and made some groundless mention of how I supposedly had
cheated old West.
Jutey-Fruity has this way of making up bad stuff about folks and repeating
it at every opportunity as if it is fact. It's fairly obvious that in his
mind fiction is truer than reality.
West (or someone who sounded a lot like Jute posting as West) recently
leveled the same tired old general accusation on this NG.
I took him to task and challenged him to say publicly in detail what I
supposedly did to wrong him.
Like Jute, West never responded with facts or details because there aren't
any.
It's hard for me to respect someone that acts like such a tool, especially
when he never seems to add anything to the threads, except to pose regular
questions and act like he never absorbs anything from the answers.
Jon
It seems that you birds of a feather (weick & yeager) have an unholy
alliance that supports each other. No matter how hard you try to mold your
persona, it's obvious that your lives are NOT balanced. 90% of your posts
are diatribes with very little technical info to share. That in itself
spells unbalanced. Perhaps this is why you are compelled to state that this
is just a casual, passing interest hobby. If this were true, there would be
no need to mention it. Both of you should get a life or perhaps a marriage
license.
Jon Yaeger
2007-04-02 23:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by west
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by west
just like you (Weik) & Yeager. At least PA has an excuse (illness).
What's
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by west
yours ... hate yourself, frustration? Yeager also has an excuse,
jealous
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by west
immaturity. I wish you wouldn't answer any posts of mine. There's
enough ill
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by west
will already here.
unsigned out of utter contempt
Pest,
I never understood this "unsigned out of contempt", utter or otherwise
. . .
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
as the headers are already "signed". But it's a trite little phrase
that
Post by Jon Yaeger
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by Jon Yaeger
your idol Jute employs, so I'm not surprised.
I still can't figure out what I'm supposed to be jealous of . . . your
knowledge, demonstrated craftsmanship & skills, articulateness, high
intelligence . . .
Do tell, friend!
Jon
The difficulty with West is that he/she expects to be taken seriously
at all levels and at all times. There are some pretty basic issues
a) a limited sense-of-humor. This is the primary requirement for
reasonable survival in Usenet.
b) the hide of a rhinocerous. After a sense-of-humor, the next-most
needed attribute.
c) recent-convert-syndrome: Most such are quite dedicated and quite
fanatical... see a) and b) above.
d) youth: West is likely quite young and impressionable. One of the
hardest experiences in a young life after the first broken heart is to
discover that one's first 'adult' hero actually does have feet of
clay.
e) absolute syndrome: The fallacious thinking that the opposite of
Black is necessarily White.
Then, of course, one may discuss his/her choice of avatars. ?????. If
the choice is to be Kato to Jute-McCoy's Clouseau, there is not much
that can be done about it other than hope for an awakening before
permanent brain-damage sets in. Now, that analogy is apt in another
way... those who are too close to the noted pair tend to get caught in
the collateral damage. My position (and I write -only- for myself in
this case) is to see Jute-McCoy in the same light as a wintering den
for rattlesnakes. Fair warning to all is required, but in the main it
is best left ignored, untouched and undisturbed. Well... right. There
are both no snakes in Ireland and rattlesnakes are environmentally
important. Sorry for a bad second analogy.
For me, this is a hobby. Audio/Vintage Radios/Clocks/RC and so forth
get perhaps 4-5 hours a week of my time, including such posts as this.
And I consider myself blessed that my life and circumstance permits
such luxury. My personal favorite tasks are the restoration of
equipment (SS & Tube) of certain vintages... with the more difficult
the problem the better. I don't take _any_ of it seriously... That
would be directly contrary to the purpose of a hobby, after all.
Lastly, West seems to be entirely unaware that many here have paid
their dues, are entitled to their opinion (and have no hesitation
about expressing such), and in some cases are not particularly 'nice'
people. Such is life, t'was ever thus and ever will be. I will take
honest, direct, and knowledgable over 'nice' under all conditions and
circumstances.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Some good observations and points there, Peter.
We probably have a bit in common -- I like to restore gear and do a
limited
Post by Jon Yaeger
amount of design (with the emphasis on LIMITED). I also have a life and a
lot of other interests besides audio, believe it or not.
I like to read many of the posts here, although the quality of info and
the
Post by Jon Yaeger
goodwill that brought me here, say, five or so years ago are long gone.
There are still a lot of good posts and posters (e.g. Iain Churches, etc.)
whom I read and enjoy and respect and don't feel compelled to interact
with
Post by Jon Yaeger
unless there is a common interest about a tube subject.
There are others, who, perhaps owing to a character defect (mine) inspire
me
Post by Jon Yaeger
to tease and deride. As you point out, some can take it and fire back,
etc.
Post by Jon Yaeger
Sure, sometimes I'm a horse's ass.
I'm not sure how West and I got sideways. I reviewed some of my sent
correspondence from a few years back and there was quite a bit of cordial
communication between us.
Then Jutey-Fruity assailed my character (as he is wont to do when he can't
compete otherwise) and made some groundless mention of how I supposedly
had
Post by Jon Yaeger
cheated old West.
Jutey-Fruity has this way of making up bad stuff about folks and repeating
it at every opportunity as if it is fact. It's fairly obvious that in his
mind fiction is truer than reality.
West (or someone who sounded a lot like Jute posting as West) recently
leveled the same tired old general accusation on this NG.
I took him to task and challenged him to say publicly in detail what I
supposedly did to wrong him.
Like Jute, West never responded with facts or details because there aren't
any.
It's hard for me to respect someone that acts like such a tool, especially
when he never seems to add anything to the threads, except to pose regular
questions and act like he never absorbs anything from the answers.
Jon
It seems that you birds of a feather (weick & yeager) have an unholy
alliance that supports each other. No matter how hard you try to mold your
persona, it's obvious that your lives are NOT balanced. 90% of your posts
are diatribes with very little technical info to share. That in itself
spells unbalanced. Perhaps this is why you are compelled to state that this
is just a casual, passing interest hobby. If this were true, there would be
no need to mention it. Both of you should get a life or perhaps a marriage
license.
That's a pretty lame reply, Pest.

Why don't you cut the red herring B.S. and, since you have attacked my
integrity, why don't you show me some of yours by detailing your charges
against me.

If you cannot, then pls. STFU.
Peter Wieck
2007-04-03 13:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by west
It seems that you birds of a feather (weick & yeager) have an unholy
alliance that supports each other. No matter how hard you try to mold your
persona, it's obvious that your lives are NOT balanced. 90% of your posts
are diatribes with very little technical info to share.
Mpfffff.... You are a sorry little twit. Lemme see. Posts just of mine
with technical content:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/97729f06664cde65/e301e3c7cd41a066?lnk=gst&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=14&hl=en#e301e3c7cd41a066

Even to one of your posts:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/90c0265e96281345/d39e748c8bce717c?lnk=gst&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=13&hl=en#d39e748c8bce717c

And more:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/473226d1ab463dba/eaab7b7cee8a9797?lnk=gst&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=8&hl=en#eaab7b7cee8a9797

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/6fa99a0120304734/2d8d26b695a1c711?lnk=gst&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=5&hl=en#2d8d26b695a1c711

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.antiques.radio+phono/browse_frm/thread/e6b6b840cc1d28c/98c7cce9455dafc4?lnk=st&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=4&hl=en#98c7cce9455dafc4

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled/browse_frm/thread/e614cb7852049392/b211b8777923da65?lnk=st&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=21&hl=en#b211b8777923da65

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled/browse_frm/thread/127bf26b057ef2bd/09e0bf8658492652?lnk=st&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=32&hl=en#09e0bf8658492652

Just a random recent sample, and only on Usenet.

As for you? Hmmmm.... Lemme see... techical/useful content or advice
or suggestions and NOT a semi-rhetorical question...

AHA... all the way back on March 1:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/ec9021546dcf1841/958e3459356f7a09?lnk=gst&q=west&rnum=17&hl=en#958e3459356f7a09

Then Feb. 17 with a rather silly comment:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/d410f52474a13b5d/3a2886b134056313?lnk=gst&q=west&rnum=19&hl=en#3a2886b134056313

But none with any technical content - at least as you have generated
or experienced or achieved or suggested...

I think once before I suggested that you watch (read) and learn. There
is a great deal of knowledge and experience here if you were only to
be able to perceive it. That _none_ of it happens to source from your
particular chosen idol must make it incredibly difficult for you at an
emotional level. You need to give that up if you actually want to
learn anything that *can* serve you in your own endeavors... other
than quite a good lesson on what not to do.

There are also a fair number of pretty deranged individuals herein.
Don't join them.

Now, if you really-really-really want to learn about tubes and such-
like in a way that will allow you to progress effectively, look for
some complete-but-broken stuff. Start with something really simple
such as an AA5 AM-only radio from the 30s - 50s. Nothing exotic.
Examine every part and piece of it... they are quite elegant in their
operational simplicity and actual utility... and they embody every
principle of tube-lore (excepting the power-transformer of course)
that ever there was, albeit at the most basic level. Then maybe move
on to something in audio. Bret will have a cow and a pony, but if you
can scare up a Dynaco ST-70, Eico or similar and bring it back from
the dead... go through the dozens of available (and very simple) mods
and test each one of them against your ears... if you can have two
side-by-side, one 100% as-per-factory (but with better caps and bias
supply of course), the other modded, that would be the true test. You
can test it with 807s, in 'triode' mode, many different output tube
choices and many other ways at small cost with great learning
potential. And you would be doing something with your free time and
not whining here.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
west
2007-04-03 18:20:44 UTC
Permalink
YAWN!
Post by Peter Wieck
Post by west
It seems that you birds of a feather (weick & yeager) have an unholy
alliance that supports each other. No matter how hard you try to mold your
persona, it's obvious that your lives are NOT balanced. 90% of your posts
are diatribes with very little technical info to share.
Mpfffff.... You are a sorry little twit. Lemme see. Posts just of mine
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/97729f06664cde65/e301e3c7cd41a066?lnk=gst&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=14&hl=en#e301e3c7cd41a066
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/90c0265e96281345/d39e748c8bce717c?lnk=gst&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=13&hl=en#d39e748c8bce717c
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/473226d1ab463dba/eaab7b7cee8a9797?lnk=gst&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=8&hl=en#eaab7b7cee8a9797
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/6fa99a0120304734/2d8d26b695a1c711?lnk=gst&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=5&hl=en#2d8d26b695a1c711
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.antiques.radio+phono/browse_frm/thread/e6b6b840cc1d28c/98c7cce9455dafc4?lnk=st&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=4&hl=en#98c7cce9455dafc4
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled/browse_frm/thread/e614cb7852049392/b211b8777923da65?lnk=st&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=21&hl=en#b211b8777923da65
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled/browse_frm/thread/127bf26b057ef2bd/09e0bf8658492652?lnk=st&q=Peter+Wieck&rnum=32&hl=en#09e0bf8658492652
Post by Peter Wieck
Just a random recent sample, and only on Usenet.
As for you? Hmmmm.... Lemme see... techical/useful content or advice
or suggestions and NOT a semi-rhetorical question...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/ec9021546dcf1841/958e3459356f7a09?lnk=gst&q=west&rnum=17&hl=en#958e3459356f7a09
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tubes/browse_frm/thread/d410f52474a13b5d/3a2886b134056313?lnk=gst&q=west&rnum=19&hl=en#3a2886b134056313
Post by Peter Wieck
But none with any technical content - at least as you have generated
or experienced or achieved or suggested...
I think once before I suggested that you watch (read) and learn. There
is a great deal of knowledge and experience here if you were only to
be able to perceive it. That _none_ of it happens to source from your
particular chosen idol must make it incredibly difficult for you at an
emotional level. You need to give that up if you actually want to
learn anything that *can* serve you in your own endeavors... other
than quite a good lesson on what not to do.
There are also a fair number of pretty deranged individuals herein.
Don't join them.
Now, if you really-really-really want to learn about tubes and such-
like in a way that will allow you to progress effectively, look for
some complete-but-broken stuff. Start with something really simple
such as an AA5 AM-only radio from the 30s - 50s. Nothing exotic.
Examine every part and piece of it... they are quite elegant in their
operational simplicity and actual utility... and they embody every
principle of tube-lore (excepting the power-transformer of course)
that ever there was, albeit at the most basic level. Then maybe move
on to something in audio. Bret will have a cow and a pony, but if you
can scare up a Dynaco ST-70, Eico or similar and bring it back from
the dead... go through the dozens of available (and very simple) mods
and test each one of them against your ears... if you can have two
side-by-side, one 100% as-per-factory (but with better caps and bias
supply of course), the other modded, that would be the true test. You
can test it with 807s, in 'triode' mode, many different output tube
choices and many other ways at small cost with great learning
potential. And you would be doing something with your free time and
not whining here.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
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